"Groagun" (groagun)
06/04/2015 at 16:26 • Filed to: None
2
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"Groagun" (groagun)
06/04/2015 at 16:26 • Filed to: None | 2
| 22 |
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That’s a great photo above isn’t it? It even has that faded browning of real photographs that most of us recognize. To my knowledge it hasn’t been digitally altered so it’s the genuine deal. A glimpse into the past of days long a go. Here’s another favorite of mine:
“Hold on a minuet there”, you may be saying, “That’s a 2015 Project Livewire bike, the electric Harley”. You would be correct.
How, other than both being Harley Davidson’s, are these two bikes related and how can I classify them both as either Old and Afraid or pictures of the ‘Good Old Days’? I’ll get to that shortly.
The first prompting to write this blog came from an article over at
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It’s an article of a dyno test done on the 2014 Softail Deluxe.
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There’s nothing particularly interesting about the dyno itself or the procedure but what really caught my eye were the results.
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I fully understand what this bike is and what it’s meant to be and do. It’s not a sports bike or a drag bike or any such thing. It designed and built to cruse in comfort and waft you along on its’ torque curve. But only 71 HP from 1700cc, and truthfully, only 87 flb of torque as well?
I was stunned! I’m assuming that Harley, to keep its’ tradition(s) alive is employing the old adage of, bigger the barrel chest, the deeper the voice here. How old and inefficient is this engine and drive train though? At what point do people, not just Americans, say this is stupid now.
I love Harley’s, I get the appeal, but in 2015 is it time to move onto something new? I’m certainly not the first to ask and it just hasn’t dawned on most of us but really,,,, really: 2015, 1700cc(104 cubic inches) and only 71HP and 87flb?
It is pretty though.
So that was bad enough, then on the same day, this article drops from LaneSplitter:
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It may not be fair to call its’ death, it may be premature, but it sure as hell sounds and feels like it. To be bluntly honest, this is a huge mistake and the CEO should lose his job over this decision.
The problem here isn’t the actual decision to not move project Livewire forward, it’s the lack of vision and foresight that should disturb you as a Harley Davidson fan, supporter or even customer.
How stupid do they think we are? Step back and look at the actual bike. It’s Harleys’ cafe racer. Upright riding position, short wheel base, sculpted drag bars, mid-mounted controls: that’s a cafe racer! And it’s awesome!
Cafe racers and these types of bikes are not bought and used to go cross country or even cross state. They’re bought and used for in town commuting, bar hoping and weekend fun. If you want to go cross country, you’ll buy one of these below and have a great trip and a lifetime of memories and stories:
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I saw that picture above on Google and thought it proved part of my point. If you didn’t know and I didn’t tell you, you would have no idea this was a Harley Davidson. Part of the problem here is that the legend and history of Harley is ever present and actually forms the base of all products today and in the future, according to the new CEO: new boss, same as the old boss. And that’s the problem.
Yes, Project Livewire, the bike itself, has many compromises. It will not go far enough and it will cost too much. If they built 50 special examples of this bike and priced it at $30K American and offered them to select customers only, do you think they would have difficulty selling any of the 50?
Absolutely Not!
The first step is always the hardest and the one fraught with problems and disappointments. You can’t be too afraid to take that step, regardless of your age.
Take a look at the company and it’s owners of the past. These were not timid or afraid people. Quite the opposite. I’m sure as rain is wet that William Harley, Walter, William and Arthur Davidson were all told that starting a motorcycle company was stupid and not the best business move and would lead to their downfalls. They didn’t listen thankfully and charged ahead.
Take a look at some of these great photos from the past:
Do any of these people look timid or afraid or too old to you? Hell no. They were adventurous risk seekers and takers, the stuff of legend. It’s embarrassing to see the once proud and leading motorcycle company now be a scared old man, afraid to lose or risk any of its’ perceived wealth and empire. The real trouble is that eventually it does get taken from you, not physically or abruptly but over time as you fade into irrelevance.
With Project Livewire all of the elements for the next chapter in the Harley Davidson story is there. Bold engineering in a beautiful package. It has brought, as far as I can tell, new people to the brand: people who when this bike hits showroom floors, will spend their money on this bike. These are your next set of customers, your next group of legends.
No one, let me repeat that, NO ONE is advocated for the complete electrification of the entire Harley line up. We all fully expect to be able to purchase any current Harley right along side the new Livewire bike.
If anything and if it isn’t blatantly clear to you, the new Livewire bike is the rebirth of the company in the spirit of its’ originators and riders.
photo credits:
Google
and
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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> Groagun
06/04/2015 at 16:34 |
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Harley has a real leadership problem. From killing Buell to this they seem to be content to just produce the same product with no advances or innovation until no one wants to buy anything anymore. They need to go back to their roots...Harley's were built to be raced originally, not just be some Sunday cruiser.
HammerheadFistpunch
> Groagun
06/04/2015 at 16:37 |
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Those are pretty poor specific power numbers, to extrapolate that out to the current standard sized 3.5L V6 that’s only 146 hp and 179 ft-lbs. That’s basically dawn of the fuel injected trucks numbers.
RockThrillz89
> HammerheadFistpunch
06/04/2015 at 16:44 |
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Hell, an Econbox Civic is a 1.8L and it has 143hp (twice the HD) and 129 lb-ft.
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HammerheadFistpunch
> RockThrillz89
06/04/2015 at 16:56 |
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To be fair, the Honda motor is a highly refined unit with DOHC and variable valve timing. Even compared to Pushrod OHV without VVT its terrible. I mean the Toyota 3F-E is a direct descendant of the GM stovebolt 6 from the 40s and it makes more specific torque and nearly as much specific HP (it redlines too low to make more) (155hp/220 ft-lbs from 4.0 liters)
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RockThrillz89
> HammerheadFistpunch
06/04/2015 at 17:13 |
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Very good point. Didn’t think about that. Just that it was practically the same displacement.
Snuze: Needs another Swede
> Groagun
06/04/2015 at 17:18 |
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As MasterMario said below, Harley has serious leadership problems. I don’t think it’s lack of vision, there are (were... Erik Buell) creative and adventurous engineers and product developers there. And they keep shit canning them so they can build the same old bike over and over and over again.
I used to feel bad about this stuff, the death of icons and whatnot. But if you’re too stupid to bail out your own ship when you’re taking on water, you deserve to sink.
BobintheMtns
> RockThrillz89
06/04/2015 at 17:36 |
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I’ve had this same conversation too.... How do they get so little power from such a big (for a bike) motor? Hell, BMW get’s 200hp from a 1000cc motor, Ducati can get 190hp from a 1200cc motor.... I’ve got a 40 year old bmw airhead and was chatting with some buddies that have harleys. One of them asked when I was going to get a “real bike.” I pointed out the my 40 yr old, 1000cc bike had the same hp as his brand-new fuel injected 1600cc harley— And I don’t have to change into a black tee-shirt before riding it.....
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RockThrillz89
> BobintheMtns
06/04/2015 at 17:41 |
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Oh man, I love those old BMWs with boxers. That your bike? Absolutely gorgeous!
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BobintheMtns
> RockThrillz89
06/04/2015 at 17:45 |
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Yeah, that’s mine. Thanks for the compliment. She’d been sitting in a barn for over 10 years when I found it. ‘77 R100S with only 28K miles on it. But it looked ROUGH when I first saw it.. But after about 10 hours with degreaser and a toothbrush I took a step back and almost crapped my pants.
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RockThrillz89
> BobintheMtns
06/04/2015 at 17:48 |
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I remember the first time I saw one that looked a lot like that, can’t really remember the model number, was at the BMW Museum at the Spartanburg, SC factory. My dad and I thought it was the coolest bike we’d ever seen. It’s really the first thing I remember when I think of that trip.
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BobintheMtns
> RockThrillz89
06/04/2015 at 17:51 |
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I didn’t know there was a bmw museum there... Next time I’m headed by sparklecity, I think I’ll have to check that out—-
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BobintheMtns
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
06/04/2015 at 17:56 |
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Yeah, but everytime harley tries something “new” the loyal can’t disavow it fast enough.. For example see the vrod— while still not up to par by ‘modern’ standards, it was at least an attempt by hd, but the harley faithful wanted nothing to do with it....
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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> BobintheMtns
06/04/2015 at 18:08 |
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too bad Harley’s loyal customers are probably going to die off sooner rather than later. I know this is anecdotal, but I know one guy around my age (mid to late 20's) who has a Harley, and he's looking to get rid of it to get a nice sport touring bike...the only other people I know with Harley's are 40+ If the younger generation doesn't get interested in what Harley has to offer, they will be in serious, serious trouble within 20 years
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RockThrillz89
> BobintheMtns
06/04/2015 at 18:19 |
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It’s right on 85. It’s actually between Greer and Duncan, but the address is ole Murderburg. The museum is the half moon glass building. Free to tour. I think factory tours are $10 a person tops. Probably cheaper.
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BobintheMtns
> RockThrillz89
06/04/2015 at 18:30 |
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Haha.. Murderburg... I haven’t heard that one... But gracias for the beta, Imma definitely going to check that out next time I’m in SC
Chasaboo
> Groagun
06/04/2015 at 18:43 |
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Pardon the pun but I was quite shocked by them killing their electric motorcycle. For once it looked like Harley was going to do something that I was going to be interested in. Well so much for that! They’re doomed as far as I’m concerned. No interest in being an aging pirate.
TheOnelectronic
> Groagun
06/04/2015 at 23:01 |
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It’s because Harley sells an image, not a motorcycle. The few HD dealers I’ve been in were 30% motorcycle, 70% clothes.
AMGtech - now with more recalls!
> Groagun
06/05/2015 at 01:34 |
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Sound and appearance. Radiators on bikes are ugly and the only things that compete with Harleys for sound are AMGs.
Wait... Problem solved. AMG should build engines for Harley. Then we get bonkers power output and the kind of noise Godzilla would make if he were battling Zeus.
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Groagun
> AMGtech - now with more recalls!
06/05/2015 at 02:20 |
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Ah they already have a deal with Porsche=)
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AMGtech - now with more recalls!
> Groagun
06/05/2015 at 02:28 |
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Huh. I had no idea. Hopefully it works for them. I love Harley, but they really do need to catch up a bit.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> BobintheMtns
06/05/2015 at 08:07 |
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Yeah, it’s very unfortunate. I think the problem, again, goes back to corporate culture. For one thing, I think Harley, as a corporation, is less about the product more about raising stock prices and pleasing shareholders, etc. And the way they’ve done that is by cultivating this sort of “cult of Harley” that has kind of fixed their motorcycles in time, which leaves no room for improvement, no room to branch out.
They’ve been essentially making the same motorcycles over and over again for so long that they’ve probably amortized their development costs 10-fold. They order parts in such a quantity that their cost must be very low, so every sale generates a high profit, especially when people roll in all the Screamin’ Eagle accessories.
And you’re right, every time they try to advance the brand, the faithful lose their minds and bikes the VRod are not volume sellers. And since they need to amortize the development costs, they see a very low return per bike, which the shareholders do not want to see because it could hurt the value of their stock.
They’ve really backed themselves into a corner, and it’s only getting worse. They canned Erik Buell because they want to double-down on their current strategy that is going to lose in the long run. And it might work for another 10-20 years, but they aren’t bringing in fresh, young customers, and all their existing customer base is getting too old to ride. It’s not a strategy for long term success.
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BobintheMtns
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
06/05/2015 at 11:28 |
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Some excellent points... especially regarding the how long ago they probably recouped any R&D costs being the reason to shy away from R&D now...